VS.NET 2005 vs. ReSharper
I was curious how JetBrains views the future of ReSharper when it seems
VS.NET 2005 will be duplicating many of ReSharper's current features. Is
anyone there running the tech previews to see what Microsoft is doing?
Don't get me wrong - I'm a ReSharper junkie and I need the features now, but
it's always good to look to the horizon... Comments?
Thanks,
Derek Price
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It's currently not clear enough which features will be in Whidbey but we
definitely are going to compete with it.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Derek Price" <dprice@doble.com> wrote in message
news:c98qs0$sho$1@is.intellij.net...
but
>
>
>
In what way?
--
Andrey Simanovsky
Software Developer
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9i5km$clk$1@is.intellij.net...
>
>
>
Is
>
>
Yes - in what way? I know you never like to reveal your secrets to your
competitors, but some of the refactoring in VS.NET2005 looks very good.
ReSharper needs to be able to have all the duplicate functionality plus more
to compete. Refer to these links , for known functionality - I'm
sure there are better links, but these were the first ones I could find.
http://www.enterprisej2me.com/blog/ms/?postid=20
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
"Andrey Simanovsky (JetBrains)" <ands@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:c9i706$mae$1@is.intellij.net...
>
>
>
>
Of course we need to have most of VS functionality plus more. (However I do
not think we need ALL the functionality of VS, do you use ALL VS features?)
As for Whidbey fuinctionality, I read something in the Internet and looked
at the previews. Of course, they move in the right direction but the current
implementation is too far from being usable IMO. Of course, they will get
much better in the release.
BTW what in particular looks very good in VS.NET2005? Just wondering what
people like...
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Derek Price" <dprice@doble.com> wrote in message
news:c9ifft$e4s$1@is.intellij.net...
more
>
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
>
we
message
we
>
>
Of course I don't use every feature of VS, but then again ReSharper
concentrates on a very specialized area of VS. I wouldn't expect RS to be a
full-fledged kernal mode debugger!
What looks good in VS?
I like that there are tooltips while filling in the templates ("Press TAB
to move to next field", etc.)
The "Preview Changes" option looks great. I could have used that
yesterday when I renamed a variable and didn't realize everything it would
change.
I like the "Change Tracking" feature as well. You could possibly combine
this with the Errors Gutter (which is an excellent feature).
I have not installed VS2005 since I don't have the time or the extra pc to
do it, but from the screenshots alone, they're going to give you a run for
your money. So based on the screenshots alone, they have duplicated quite a
bit of what RS does now. What will RS offer in addition when VS finally
releases? I must re-state that I'm hooked on RS and feel very loyal to it.
It's here now and not a promise for 2005. It's amazing what you've
accomplished in such a short time. But the general masses that haven't used
RS will need some compelling reasons beyond loyalty to dish out a $100 (or
whatever the final price will be).
Thanks,
Derek "The Other Derek" Price
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9kad5$g7q$1@is.intellij.net...
do
features?)
>
current
>
>
>
>
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
but
but
>
>
used
Who said we were going to continue as an add-in to VS?
TAB
Yes, I thought about that. But it probably makes sense only when you do not
know how to use the templates yet. I was thinking about showing it only the
first time. What do you think?
Hmm... Could not catch the idea, what could the rename change that needed
the preview?
combine
Yes, of course it's useful. We had it in IDEA for ages :-).
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Derek Price" <dprice@doble.com> wrote in message
news:c9kn9i$dgf$1@is.intellij.net...
a
>
TAB
combine
>
a
it.
used
>
>
looked
get
what
your
good.
plus
I'm
find.
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
>
>
Ambitious aren't you?! You just opened a can of worms. First off - when's
the EAP? ;) Are you going to be primarily an editor or are you integrating
everything (debugger, etc.) like VS does? Are you basically porting IDEA to
.NET?
>
not
the
I'm not sure about the first time only. What if you don't use a particular
template for quite a while? You might forget the details (I know it's not
too difficult to figure it out). Bottom line - stick it in a build and
let's try it out!
would
>
It was more of a cut and paste problem while developing and before
compiling...
>
Sorry - I haven't had the pleasure of using IDEA. I just saw that IDEA was
a runner up in the IDE category, but I can't remember who beat you. It was
a special issue put out by one of the dev magazines I get. I just reviewed
your IDEA web site and if you plan to integrate all these features, then
you'll be on par with MS. Although there should be integration with FxCop,
NUnit, VSS, maybe NDoc, etc. How about compatibility with existing add-ins
(like... hmm... ReSharper?)? There are some really great add-ins already
and would be a shame if you couldn't take advantage of them. Just out of
curiosity, do you really think that you'll be able to compete in the IDE
category with MS?
http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/
when's
integrating
to
We are going to integrate everything (debugger, etc). Basically like IDEA
but, of course, we plan to go ahead!
particular
I thought you said about "Press Tab..." tooltip only. It's only useful to
users which do not know that Tab jumps to the next template field. Did you
mean some other tooltips?
We'll integrate with NUnit and VSS in anycase.
I'm not sure about NDoc. What kind of integration you need?
I didn't know what "FxCop" was but I looked into the google and it seemed to
be a code analisys tool. Is it THAT wide spread? (In anycase it's not a big
deal to integrate with such kind of stuff.)
I don't think we can support add-ins for VS but we'll provide our own API
for add-ins and I'm sure many addin's authors will provide a version for our
IDE.
We are not going to take a very significant market share (50% for example
:)) but I'm sure we'll take some piece.
IDE's is not Microsoft's primary business, they just sell the technologies
and they need to have an IDE that supports them. It's not a real competition
between us and MS because they should be interested in tools like ours, they
make .NET platform more attractive for developers.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Derek Price" <dprice@doble.com> wrote in message
news:c9ks8j$i4t$1@is.intellij.net...
>
when's
integrating
to
>
("Press
>
particular
>
needed
>
>
>
was
was
reviewed
then
FxCop,
add-ins
>
>
>
Valentin, what do you mean "far from being usable"?
Obviously it's a Alpha Version, and so you can expect some crashes, but on
the performance side, for instance, intelisense and coloring is a lot faster
on VS2005 than it is on R# is at the moment.
If you only take into consideration the code editor, most of the time
usability of VS2005 is on par or better than on VS2003.
(As a side note, R# is getting there, and it's the only thing that makes
going VS2003 bearable .)
Like many here I'm in love with R# ( where have you been the last 4
years? ), but don't be mistaken, the current feature set of R# doesn't seem
a good a match for VS2005.
But then again, R# is now ( or almost now), and VS2005 is at least 1 year
from now...
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9kad5$g7q$1@is.intellij.net...
do
features?)
>
current
>
>
>
>
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
but
but
>
>
Many of the features did not worked properly when I tried it. There was
multiple usablity flaws and I thought it was difficult to use it for any
production work. I didn't try though. Just my opinion.
Of course, it's an Alpha Version (as well as ReSharper).
I did not understand, did you prefer to use VS2005 or VS2003 + R# for
production work?
What do you mean? It's hard to compare an IDE and a add-in. What is missing
in the current R#?
Of course. We are not going to take the rest for this year :-).
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Joao Paulo Carreiro" <anonymous@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:c9l17u$qsm$1@is.intellij.net...
>
faster
>
seem
>
>
looked
get
what
your
good.
plus
I'm
find.
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
>
>
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9l00n$dj0$1@is.intellij.net...
Just let me know when the EAP is!
In one of those earlier links , I think the msdn one, it showed
different tooltips during template expansion. That's what I was referring
to.
http://www.enterprisej2me.com/blog/ms/?postid=20
to
big
I'm not currently using NDoc, but it seems to be a very popular
documentation tool. FxCop is used by Microsoft for all their .NET
development. All check-ins must pass FxCop before being checked in and I
think it's run during every build. It will also be integrated/part of the
VS2005 Team System
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/teamsystem/default.aspx
Of course, you will be the first :-).
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Derek Price" <dprice@doble.com> wrote in message
news:c9l2bv$1g2$1@is.intellij.net...
IDEA
>
>
to
you
>
>
seemed
>
>
>
>
I get to be second!!!!'
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9l3rt$ahh$1@is.intellij.net...
>> Just let me know when the EAP is
>
>
>
>
>> "Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
>> news:c9l00n$dj0$1@is.intellij.net...
>> > We are going to integrate everything (debugger, etc). Basically like
>> > but, of course, we plan to go ahead!
>>
>> Just let me know when the EAP is!
>>
>> > I thought you said about "Press Tab..." tooltip only. It's only useful
>> > users which do not know that Tab jumps to the next template field. Did
>> > mean some other tooltips?
>>
>> In one of those earlier links , I think the msdn one, it showed
>> different tooltips during template expansion. That's what I was
>> referring
>> to.
>> http://www.enterprisej2me.com/blog/ms/?postid=20
>>
>> > We'll integrate with NUnit and VSS in anycase.
>> > I'm not sure about NDoc. What kind of integration you need?
>> > I didn't know what "FxCop" was but I looked into the google and it
>> to
>> > be a code analisys tool. Is it THAT wide spread? (In anycase it's not a
>> big
>> > deal to integrate with such kind of stuff.)
>>
>> I'm not currently using NDoc, but it seems to be a very popular
>> documentation tool. FxCop is used by Microsoft for all their .NET
>> development. All check-ins must pass FxCop before being checked in and I
>> think it's run during every build. It will also be integrated/part of
>> the
>> VS2005 Team System
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/teamsystem/default.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
You can't use VS2005 for production work ( the EULA doesn't allow it).
But if I could, I would prefer VS2005 vs VS2003 & R#, because the
intelisense, coloring and refactoring are a lost faster in VS2005 than they
are on VS2003 & R#
I'm only comparing the features that you seem to be aiming at. And I'm
taking into consideration that if you want R# then you'll have VS, so any
feature that VS has, is a feature that R# should do better and at least as
fast.
- Code completion - R# wins here on features, but the speed is still
lacking. The diference is imediate response from VS vs a noticiable lag (
less than a second, granted) from R# sometimes.
- Refactoring - There's more refactorings on VS at the moment.
- Coloring - VS has got about the same features ( minus the coloring of
methods), but does it a lot faster. When I open a big file (2000 lines) in
R#, it sometimes take more than 10 seconds for the colors to show.
- Templates - About the same feature set and speed.
Obviuslly you do have some features that VS doesn't have like:
- Code Analysis - It makes me feel like I'm using VB.NET's background
compiler, and thats a GREAT thing.
- Code navigation - VS2005 goto definition is much improved ( it doesn't
simply go to the first overload that if finds, it shows a list of
overloads), but R#s is done as it should, ie, it looks at the types you're
using on the method and goes to the correct overload EVERY TIME. I've even
mapped my F12 key to it :)
Cheers,
Paulo
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9l20l$v12$1@is.intellij.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
missing
>
>
>
>
on
year
message
I
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
message
Whidbey
Whidbey
>
>
I could not reproduce the delay. Are there any particular details that may
help us to reproduce it? How big the files are, how long the list is? Do
other guys here notice any delays?
I carefully checked that and here are the results.
On VS side:
- Encapsulate Field
- Extract Interface
On our side:
- Move Type
- Introduce Variable
- Plus we are going to have 4-6 additional refactorings in the release
(Honestly, I see no big advantage of having Encapsulate Field refactoring in
C#. Just rename the field so its name starts uppercase, then change its name
back and generate the property. That's all.)
in
In fact they color only type names (am I wrong?). It needs a very simple
analisys to do that.
Anyway we are going to fix the speed of the coloring soon.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Joao Paulo Carreiro" <anonymous@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:c9pjkr$aqd$1@is.intellij.net...
>
they
>
>
in
>
>
>
>
>
>
but
makes
(However
will
to
functionality -
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
in
>
>
>
Ok... That's not fair, I was talking about .83 and you guys release .84
where you've improved the performance tremendously. ;)
Sometimes I see a 3 seconds delay on the first intelisense use of a file (
even on a file with 30 lines of code), but that might just be my HD catching
up, because if I close the file and try again it doesn't happen.
>
How about the Promote Local Variable to Parameter?
>
Never really needed to use it, but I can see it can be needed.
Love it.
Can you share the list of new refactorings?
in
name
I use that refactoring a lot of times ( on C# Refactory) on "legacy" code.
Yes, it's simple to do with a Rename refactoring, and then some tweeking,
but on that case it should be quite easy for you to implement it, no?
>
That was ver .83 - On ver .84 by the time VS2003 opens the file (500 lines)
and displays it the colorings are done, and on files with 2000 lines it
takes 1 second. That's fantastic, but not instantaneous. ( P4 2 GHZ, 1GB
RAM)
You're right. They only color User Types( Enums, Classes, Delegates,
Interfaces, Value Types ), and I personally don't see the value of member
coloring. If that's a big performance eater and it's not used on other
places ( like code analysis) , can we turn it off?
You already did most of it ;)
Cheers,
Paulo
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c9plrt$19v$1@is.intellij.net...
(
>
>
>
>
>
>
in
name
>
>
>
>
any
as
(
you're
even
message
was
any
is
only
usability
doesn't
lot
time
doesn't
and
the
wondering
very
functionality
could
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
>
>
Hi,
catching
On the first run our intellisense parses XML documentation for items which
are going to be suggested.
This tooks some time. For the next run this info is cached.
--
Eugene Pasynkov
Developer
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Joao Paulo Carreiro" <anonymous@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:c9po9p$vrq$1@is.intellij.net...
may
>
catching
>
>
>
>
>
refactoring
>
lines)
>
>
>
>
lag
may
refactoring
of
lines)
for
least
lag
of
lines)
doesn't
crashes,
coloring
I
for
4
1
crashes,
4
1
secrets
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
wrote
>
>
Isn't that what Change Signature can do?
http://www.jetbrains.net/confluence/display/ReSharper/FeaturesforReSharper+release
Yes, it should be easy to implement it.
Just after I send you this workaround, someone here said me that there is an
important case which I'm missing. Very often I want to expose only read
access to the property but still have assignments in the body of the class.
With the above workaround I will have to manually correct all write accesses
inside the class.
Maybe it makes sense to implement this refactoring for the release...
There is no sense in turning this off. We anyway do full code analisys to
highlight syntax errors. Symbols highlighting we get for granted.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Joao Paulo Carreiro" <anonymous@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:c9po9p$vrq$1@is.intellij.net...
may
>
catching
>
>
>
>
>
refactoring
>
lines)
>
>
>
>
lag
may
refactoring
of
lines)
for
least
lag
of
lines)
doesn't
crashes,
coloring
I
for
4
1
crashes,
4
1
secrets
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/whidbey_csharp_preview.asp
wrote
>
>
I reckon this will be a C# development environment. Will you ever consider making a C++ developmnet environment as well? If not, what are the reasons for not making it? I have been using IntelliJ IDEA for a couple of years. Now that I have to move on to C++, I can't seem to find any IDE that suits my needs as well as IDEA did when programming Java.
So, will you ever make a C++ development environment? :)
C++ seems to be very hard to process especially with Win32-like style of
programming (extensive use of macros, huge header files etc). Maybe C++ for
.NET programming style will be better but I just not sure that most of C++
programmers won't switch to C# if they move to .NET.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Rune Vistnes" <vistnesr@online.no> wrote in message
news:15706372.1086353126119.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
making a C++ developmnet environment as well? If not, what are the reasons
for not making it? I have been using IntelliJ IDEA for a couple of years.
Now that I have to move on to C++, I can't seem to find any IDE that suits
my needs as well as IDEA did when programming Java.
>
programming Java.
Just curious, what kind of C++ programming do you do? Win32 programming,
.NET programming, or something else?
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Rune Vistnes" <vistnesr@online.no> wrote in message
news:15706372.1086353126119.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
making a C++ developmnet environment as well? If not, what are the reasons
for not making it? I have been using IntelliJ IDEA for a couple of years.
Now that I have to move on to C++, I can't seem to find any IDE that suits
my needs as well as IDEA did when programming Java.
>
I've learnt the basics of C++ (differences between Java and C++), and now I've moved on to OpenGL programming. My current project is a car game, which is a kind of fun.. :) Why do you ask?
Just curious. We are considering providing support for C++ but have not
decided anything yet.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Rune Vistnes" <runevistnes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:27911888.1086904554633.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
I've moved on to OpenGL programming. My current project is a car game, which
is a kind of fun.. :) Why do you ask?
I hope you decide to provide support for C+. When moving to .NET, some people will change to C#, that's true. But still many people will continue using C+. The two programming languages have different ranges of use, and for that reason, both will coexist for many years to come. That's what I think at least.. :)
No doubt C++ will exist for years. If tasks to support C# and C++ had the
same complexity we would support both. Unfortunately C++ is much harder to
treat with.
--
Valentin Kipiatkov
Chief Scientist, Vice President of Product Development
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Rune Vistnes" <runevistnes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32736759.1086961497165.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
people will change to C#, that's true. But still many people will continue
using C++. The two programming languages have different ranges of use, and
for that reason, both will coexist for many years to come. That's what I
think at least.. :)
Once I tried to find a C++ refactoring tool,
but I completely failed. It seems that the preprocessor (let alone
the complexity of the C++ language) is already an insurmountable obstacle
for
tool developers.
If anyone is aware of such a tool, I'd be very interested.
"Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains)" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:cace7o$cvv$1@is.intellij.net...
>
>
>
>
I did some checking, and it seems like the latest version of Visual SlickEdit has some C++ refactoring. You can check it out at http://www.slickedit.com/products/pr_visual_slickedit.php.
Rune,
thanks for this reference, I'll try it.
"Rune Vistnes" <runevistnes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:17362786.1086993092571.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
SlickEdit has some C++ refactoring. You can check it out at
http://www.slickedit.com/products/pr_visual_slickedit.php.